Jason Hartman and investment counselor Adam start today’s episode discussing the history of Veterans Day, the 30th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the importance of due diligence. Jason brings on guest Patrick Boyaggi, CEO and co-founder of Own Up. Patrick’s company brings a new mortgage model that can avoid hard credit inquiries that might aid investors worried about their credit score, looking for a loan.
2012 is when we did our first purchase. I think 2011 is when we started. You know, attending meetings, probably 2010 is when I started listening to podcasts. My husband was a little ahead of me. So he’s probably, you know, late 2009, early 2010. And you know, we just obsessively listened to I think you’re on episode 300. At that time, though. Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you Follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it on Now, here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors. Welcome to Episode 1322 1322. Thank you so much for joining us today. And it is Veterans Day, the day we honor our military veterans Not to be confused with Memorial Day. different concepts. Of course, it is really something you know, when you consider the bravery the sacrifice people have made for their country. Of course, we’re talking about the United States here, but we have listeners in 189 countries around the world. Sure all countries share similar stories, in terms of having veterans and so forth. So thank you so much for your service. We’re going to share a couple of quotes about Veterans Day in a moment talk about the Berlin Wall. Adam is here with me he’s got a story to share. We’re going to talk about near death experience, and then go to our guest, where we’ll talk about new mortgage models. And I know you’re all wondering, what the heck does a near death experience have to do with real estate investing, mortgage models, etc. You’ll see Adam, welcome back. Thanks. It’s good to talk to you. Good to have you back. So Veterans Day, you know, this is something we do every November 11. I remember on one Veterans Day, years ago, I happened to be in Pearl Harbor on that day, saw the the acknowledgement of Veterans Day there. I’m looking at like a list of quotes about Veterans Day, and one from Nathan Hale in 1776. I mean, think about the state of mind. Some of our veterans had to have over the years and of course, this was spoken long before Veterans Day existed, which came into being after World War One, which was, you know, a tragic, tragic war obviously, but in 17 cents 76 Nathan Hale said, I only regret that I have bought one life to give for my country. Can you imagine the kind of dedication that our founders and the thinking that must have been going on it way back long before Veterans Day existed? Of course, the founding of the United States, but yeah, just something.
Yeah. And it’s especially we’re going to talk about, you know, the technology mortgages later, but I like the fact that our veterans nowadays, the technology is keeping them safer and safer. You know, we’ve got thankfully a lot of the veterans now, you know, we’re able to do a whole lot more without deploying hundreds of thousands of troops into the areas that we’re going into. So I thank everybody for their service and glad that a lot of them not all of them obviously, but a lot of them are safer now.
Jason Hartman 3:51
You know, if you haven’t checked it out if we have a lot of clients that are ex military, and you know, make sure you check out our heroic investing show where We really address investing needs, first responders, and military all in in one show that’s kind of geared toward that specifically, but again, not as comprehensive as this show by any means. But we do profile some of the military and first responder people on that show on the heroic investing show. So check that out. Or many, many shows.
Yeah, and Gary Pinkerton, who co hosts that with you, he does a lot into Yeah, he delves a lot into the transitioning from the active duty to, you know, investor or business owner or whatever, you know, the transitioning out of the military.
Jason Hartman 4:40
Yeah. And, you know, having done it himself moving from Navy submarine Captain to civilian, he has been, you know, diligently working on that for several years. Now, another great quote, and this is from Reagan. And then it’s a good segue to talk about the Berlin Wall which fell 30 years ago. Just you know, 30 And two days ago, I guess, veterans no better than anyone else the price of freedom for they’ve suffered the scars of war, we can offer them no better tribute than to protect what they have one for us. And I credit Reagan with ending the cold war with the fall of the Berlin Wall. His famous speech was two years before the Berlin Wall fell when he said Secretary Gorbachev tear down this wall. Right. And that said, super famous speech. And I’ve been to Berlin, I think, three times now. And I remember the first time I was there, in the early Well, I guess it was 1994. And I spent about six hours at Checkpoint Charlie. And let me tell you something that was a moving moving experience Checkpoint Charlie was, I guess, the main or one of the main entrances and exits from East to West Berlin. And there Now a museum there. And you just see Adam, all of these incredible feats. People went to to try and escape communism. The Berlin Wall was put up on a weekend, it was basically put up over a weekend. It was a, of course, a surprise. East Berlin was suffering this massive brain drain is all of the smart people were smart enough to get the heck out of there. And the Soviets decided, we can’t have this, we gotta stop the brain drain. So we’re going to station soldiers all around East Berlin and then circle the entire region. And they did that on a weekend. And they built the first version of the wall on a weekend, if you can, I mean, it’s just amazing. And so suddenly, people woke up to find that they were trapped. They were now prisoners in East Berlin. I mean, tears came to my eyes several times when I was at checkpoint. Charlie looking at the exhibits and, and seeing the kind of ways people tried to escape they tried to tunnel under, they tried to fly over. They tried to just hop the fence and run through the middle area where they were machine gun down or, or guard dogs attack them. And you know, they were either killed or in prison. They tried to invent elaborate ways to hide inside of cars to be smuggled out. It just really unbelievable. You know, you think the disgusting communists would get the message? Hey, you know, maybe we’re doing something wrong if everybody’s trying to leave. Just Just something. It’s unbelievable.
The solutions that people come up with sometimes really make you wonder, who thought this was the best option?
Jason Hartman 7:44
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, no question about it. Reagan in 1987. He said, and he stood at the Brandenburg Gate right at the Berlin Wall basically behind him. I believe it was right behind the Brandenburg Gate. I’ve been there a few times. And just can’t remember exactly. But he said, General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalisation, come here to this gate, Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate, Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall. You know, very powerful words. Many are in Reagan’s cabinet said that he should not say that it was too inflammatory. And two years later, thankfully, the wall came down. But, um, one other really interesting thing about this is that someone on my Facebook and you probably saw this, this woman that used to work for me who is just off her rocker, starts comparing it to a border wall, you know, that Trump wants to put up right is if it’s the same thing, I had to educate her and I said, you know, you do realize that a wall around the country is meant to keep People from illegally entering is different from a wall that is a prison to keep people from leaving. I mean, just, you know, amazing to me, but this is what you get and the brainwashing we have today.
And I don’t think our border wall is going to be doing the things that they were doing to people fleeing the country.
Jason Hartman 9:21
No, certainly not. Certainly not. And, and that’s coming from you, who’s definitely not a Trump fan. So I’m glad you have a balanced view that it’s really something, you know, these historical events. I remember the second time I was in Berlin, I went on a tour. And this tour guide, it absolutely shocked me, this young guy, obviously very liberal. All he could talk about is Kennedy’s speech in the 60s. And I believe Kennedy also spoke at the Brandenburg Gate, but anyway, he spoke right at the wall. And you know, he said to Emma Berliner, basically he said it in Germany. That’s all he could talk about this tour guide that toured us around for hours. And he never mentioned Reagan. I mean, how you can just gloss over the guy who actually had the president when it actually came down. Yeah, I mean, it’s absolutely shocking to me how how revisionist our history is it’s absolutely absolutely shocking. Okay, so veterans, thank you for your service. Be careful of the economic Berlin walls. As I’ve mentioned many times, California is making every attempt to build an economic Berlin Wall, because capital because there’s capital flight. Okay, we’re definitely seeing that there’s no question over the last maybe decade and a half. I’ve certainly noticed the California economic Berlin Wall is they’ve made it harder for people to move assets out of that state. They made it harder for people to leave. You know, I assume every high Tax jurisdiction that is losing population is doing this. I assume New York is doing the same thing. I don’t know enough about it. But be careful of the economic Berlin walls. That’s the only other point I want to give you. Now, Adam, let’s switch gears and talk about some you do a good job of due diligence. And you recently did some due diligence on a property you’re looking to buy. And tell us about that.
So I want to remind everybody that the proform is that are up on our website, our best guesses, we do our best to give you the best and most accurate information, but it’s not always 100% you know, dead on down to the penny. But recently, I was looking at a property and I’ll, I’ll just tell you now it was in York, we were thinking, you know, hey, this has some really good numbers, but the one number that you will find that fluctuates more than any other number is going to be your property taxes. Because the market specialist they post it based on for the most part, what they’re paying and property tax, which is fair because that’s what it currently is, and they don’t know What it will exactly come to whenever you purchase it if there’s any reassessment. So I checked in, I said, Okay, this property tax was around $1,000 or 1100 dollars a year. So I called the York appraisal office and talk to them for a little bit. And I said, you know, if it were taxed at $95,000, which is what the house was, how much more would my property taxes be? And they told me it would be $4,000, a year more. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, there’s no way this property could cash flow. If it was that much What’s going on? How can this be solved? So I called the tax assessor’s office, the tax collector, and said, Hey, what’s going on with your property taxes? Why is it so low now? And it’s going to be higher? And we had a conversation, and I realized kind of
Jason Hartman 12:43
why I have a question for you. Before you go on. I’m curious. How long did it take you to get through and get the answers to questions by calling
absolutely no time they the lady at the switchboard sent me straight to him and he answered, It was incredible. Oh wow. That’s great. So I talked to him for a few minutes, then I talked to in our
Jason Hartman 13:04
talk to him. But you know,
I just asked him some general questions about how property taxes were done in that area. He explained it to me. And I thought, well, this seems kind of odd, because, you know, this seems the way he said it, that the jump could happen in anytime. So then I thought, you know, we should talk to our market specialist about this, because if this is true, then all of their properties might be, you know, really often Sarah and Carrie, and I spoke to the market specialist and they said, Well, this is what we think. But here’s our real estate attorney who knows everything about property taxes, feel free to speak to him about it. So he sent us a very detailed email that explained how property taxes are assessed, and if your valuation goes up, how they will safely raise it because as you know, if that went up $400 for investors that goes up $400 a month for everybody. So it turns out there’s actually a protection in place, but this is what the main point of this is that we are here to help. And if a situation like this arises, we’re here to explain it for you because this property looked amazing at first, then it looked terrible. And now it still looks pretty amazing. It’s something that you have to do your due diligence, but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater if you get some bad news at first. Okay, so basically, what you’re saying is that it’s better than it looked on the surface. Right?
Jason Hartman 14:29
You You saw the performer, and of course, the performer is just an estimate and a projection, right? It hasn’t happened yet. So it’s not reality. You got to do your own due diligence. We always say that. So you saw the performer, then you call the tax assessor. And at first, you were very discouraged. Oh, because you thought the taxes were going to increase by five times?
Yeah, the property taxes looked like it was going to turn the cash flow negative on the property. Okay. All right. So you diligence is important, but Then once you get your due diligence, it is important to ask questions of your due diligence to figure out if that will actually happen.
Jason Hartman 15:07
Right. So the net is what
the net is that as you’re doing your due diligence, if you have any questions at all about it, we’re here for you. We have our market specialist here for you. And even they have professionals for you there. So if you have any questions along the way, in your due diligence, don’t be discouraged. We can help you sort everything out. Because we want you to do all the due diligence you can we want you to have as much information and you should have as much information as possible going into the deal. But even as you figured out like as I was looking at it, I am not a tax professional. So when I looked at it, I thought, Oh my gosh, throw my hands up, get run away from this entire market. You know, who knows what’s going to happen? But we can help you get in contact with professionals who won’t charge you thousands of dollars to talk to them.
Jason Hartman 15:55
Okay, good, good. And when you say tax professional, of course, there are many types. taxes as we all know, and here, we’re just talking about property taxes, right? Yes. Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay, so near death experience, and let’s get to our guest. This is when I saw this article and posted it in our content group. Of course, the venture Alliance members have access to the content group. I guess it intrigued you as much as it did me right, Adam?
I mean, it’s a headline you have to click on.
Jason Hartman 16:27
Oh, I mean, it’s good. This is good. Now. You know, most criminals are stupid if they were smart fader and earn their money, honestly. Right. But some are really quite brilliant. And this guy was pretty brilliant. He’s serving a life sentence. Okay, lock them up and throw away the key, right? But four years ago, he had a near death experience when his heart stopped beating. And, Adam, what did he do then?
Well, he was resuscitated. And so he figured, well, at one point I was dead. So why not? Why not take a shot?
Jason Hartman 17:09
Why not tell him? Hey,
I served my life. It’s kind of like Game of Thrones. Whenever spoiler alert, Jon Snow comes back from the dead and says his watches ended this guy figured, hey, maybe my watch has ended too. Yeah, but unfortunately for him,
Jason Hartman 17:22
yeah, yeah. So his claim he petitioned to courts, I guess, right, to say that he already died. So he served his life sentence. I mean, think about the rationale here. It’s actually pretty good. I gotta give those guys some credit. This is the problem with our legal system, by the way, it’s not about right and wrong. It’s not about true and folds. It’s about, you know, wrangling and Bs and, you know, all sorts of just stuff that is unrelated to you. You know, it’s like the disgusting scumbag lawyers out there who really don’t care about the truth. Of course, they just care about winning at all costs. They will do whatever they can to malign and obscure the truth and everything. And you know, hopefully there’s a good place in hell for those people because they’re disgusting. And you know, that’s in civil or criminal law. They have them everywhere, right. Hopefully, any lawyers that we have listening are not those people. You’re more principled than that, I hope. But you got to give this guy some credit. Right.
And you use the court credit for the way the right. I want to reach all I want to reach all the quote from the ruling by the appeals court. They said the man’s name is Schreiber’s. They said, Schreiber is either still alive, in which case he must remain in prison, or he is actually dead, in which case this appeal is moot.
Jason Hartman 18:50
So So in other words, the judge said, Look, if you’re alive, you got to finish your sentence. If you’re dead, none of us are really here. Anyway, this is So take your pick, right?
What is true which one you want to be true?
Jason Hartman 19:07
That is, that is great. That is great. Good story. All right, Adam. Hey, let’s get to our guests. Go to Jason urban comm check out properties. And by the way, when I was at that mastermind meeting all week, last week in Sarasota, people, you know, very sophisticated people in that audience, wealthy people, amazingly, just some of the very basic stuff they don’t understand about income property investing is, it’s scary, but it’s also easy to fix. On the front page of Jason Hartman calm is a great video, you must watch. It is free. And you should watch it every six months or so on how to analyze a real estate deal. Just keep yourself on track. I hear you guys coming to us saying well, what about this What about and I can tell that you got to go back to the fundamentals sometimes and on Just look at that Performa and constantly remind yourself how to analyze it. Without Adams ready for the guest. Let’s do it. Okay. This is what I promised last week when we ran out of time talking about new mortgage models with our guests, Patrick. It’s my pleasure to welcome Patrick boyarsky. To the show. He is co founder and CEO of own up. They are a unique spin on mortgage sourcing. And I think you’ll like what he has to say, Patrick, welcome. How are you? I’m great, Jason. Thanks
for having me.
Jason Hartman 20:34
Good. And you’re coming to us from Boston, right? Yep. Great. So the mortgage business has is a complicated one. It’s fragmented. Lot of people getting ripped off and overcharge. I’ve owned a couple of mortgage companies over the years that was long time ago. It’s kind of a crazy business. Everyone hates the process. But boy, those loans can be a great asset and building a real estate investment portfolio. That’s for sure. So we’ll talk a little bit about what you do, which is really kind of unique. But first, I thought I’d ask you, you know, what are your thoughts on mortgage rates? I can’t believe how low they are, can you?
You know, it’s remarkable what’s happened in the industry over the last eight to 10 years, when we hit all time historic lows after the financial crisis, everybody believed that we would never get anywhere close to it. And here we are, in 2019, and interest rates for single family, primary mortgages are in the low threes again. So it is really quite remarkable. And it should be a real boon to property owners.
Jason Hartman 21:36
Yeah, and remarkable might be an understatement. Because the deals are phenomenal. I mean, it really is, do you think the rates are going to stay low like this? I mean, ultimately, like when you look at the macro picture, not you know, what’s the bond market doing tomorrow or next month or whatever, but over the next few years, I mean, you know, we got an election year coming up. So that is interacts with the economy and rates and such. But I just can’t imagine if we have this conversation for three, four or five years from now that rates are going to be this low. But I’ve been wrong about interest rates many times. What do you think?
My can response to this question, and I get it often is that if I could predict the outcome of interest rates, then I certainly wouldn’t be doing this job. Right. I would be, you know, predicting them as I run a hedge fund, a top some skyscraper in Boston. But with all of that said, Your question is a longer term one, I’ll start with sort of the near term, which is, you know, the obvious point, the market is anticipating that the Fed is going to drop short term interest rates yet again. So I anticipate for the rest of this year that you know, we’re going to have interest rates at these low levels. You know, when I think about the future of the economy, we have really low unemployment, and so people are back to work or they have the ability To go back to work for the most part, and we haven’t seen a rise in inflation yet. So until we encounter a situation where, you know, inflation becomes an issue to the economy, I think that the Fed is going to continue to try and keep low rates to stimulate the economy. Now, we’ve had a bull market for the last 10 plus years. So I think the interest rate curve is its inverse right now. So it’s anticipating that there’s a recession in the near term. The thing is, the Fed uses interest rates to try and stimulate the economy. And if there’s not much room for them to lower rates, I’m not sure what they’re going to do. So I think the historical average and you probably know this better than me, Jason is somewhere in the sixes for mortgage rates. listeners, think about what Patrick just said. That’s almost double what it is now. Double. Okay. But yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, it’s a great point. It’s, you know, for real estate investors, your buying power is As great as it may be,
Jason Hartman 24:02
you know, there’s just not much more room to be any more to have any more leverage. Well, you know, I mean, maybe we really will see real negative interest rates. I would argue that versus real inflation, we are now in a negative interest rate environment, almost for sure. Versus the official inflation rate. No, but the real inflation rate Yes. So, you know, you’re you’re borrowing below the cost of inflation, which means you’re getting paid to borrow.
So it’s really phenomenal. And for your, your listeners, Jason, who are sophisticated real estate investors, they’re fully aware of the tax advantages all be it. You know, there’s some limitation now with the recent tax change. But, you know, a lot of our customers are first time homebuyers and they’re not even fully aware of the tax benefits associated with, you know, the mortgage interest deduction and factoring in, you know, what sort of impact that has on homeownership. So, yeah, I think we’re on the same page that this is a great time, home back You have, I’ve certainly appreciate it in certain markets. For a while there was going a little crazy, I think it’s come down. There’s some markets where it’s still might be like that. But there are definitely a lot of wonderful buying opportunities. And for those that are using financial leverage and securing a mortgage to do it, you’re getting, you know, near historic low rates, and you never buy a stock at the absolute low and sell it the absolute high. So the fact that you’re near this all time low, suggests that from a financing perspective, that, you know, there’s some real advantages to it.
Jason Hartman 25:33
One of the things that is really interesting about your company, by the way, how old is the company?
We formed the company at the beginning of 2016. So coming up on our fourth year,
Jason Hartman 25:43
okay, so in internet years, you’re like, you’ve been in business like 50 years. I mean, it’s so funny. Every company nowadays is so new. We’re in a very vibrant startup culture. It’s quite interesting. One of the Things that I just don’t know how you do this, I’d love for you to share it with listeners how you pull this one off. But when someone goes to your website to apply for a mortgage, they don’t get a real hit on their credit, a hard inquiry, they get only a soft inquiry. Can you explain the difference between what that is? And then I’d love to know how you do that.
Yeah, so as you alluded to, we collect your information in as little as five minutes. No social security number, no hard credit inquiry. And the way we like to think about it is this is the most efficient and least invasive way for you to begin the home financing experience. And what we do is we leverage products offered by the credit bureaus that allow us to do a soft credit inquiry with your first name, last name and home address. And we get you know, close to 95 97% of our customers are able to work through that Some of them we need to follow up with maybe a data birth and a driver’s license number. But, you know, one of the most important things for companies in this world of data security is, you know, to protect yourself and your customers. The best way to do it is to just not have the information that people could be out looking to steal and Social Security being one of the most important one.
Jason Hartman 27:23
Well, I’ll tell you, it has a many times now I was gonna say multiple times, but I have had incidents just way too many of identity theft, and it is such a hassle. It is a just a monumental household. And I want to tell all our listeners never give anyone your social security number. Never give a credit card number over the phone. I cannot believe still the number of businesses that think you’re just going to tell someone your credit card number. I mean, that’s crazy. And the fact that in the US We’re still giving waiters our credit card, and they leave the table. Unlike the way they do it in Europe where they bring the machine to the table. It really all needs to change to like Apple Pay and Google pay type concept. But in the meantime, it’s just crazy. The way we’re also lacks about credit card security.
Yeah. And listen, Jason, quite frankly, every lender in America has the capacity to use products like this, I’d love to say that we’re the only ones and that we’ve built this unique technology and we’re just leveraging the products that exist and are offered by the credit bureaus. We just have a belief that we should put the customers interest above all else. And you know, what happens too often with traditional mortgage lenders is they collect your social security number, they collect all of your information, they do hard credit inquiries, ultimately, because they’re trying to prevent you from shopping. I mean, that is their main motivation, if you think about it, because they only have the products. That they have available to offer to you, you know, they don’t want you to find out that there are other lenders out there that have lower expense models and therefore can offer lower rates, or may have different products or different programs that ultimately can lead to a better financial outcome for you. And as a result, we’ve said, you know, we are going to do what’s best for the consumer, for them to optimize their home financing experience. So collect their information in the most efficient, least invasive manner. Don’t do any hard credit inquiries don’t require social security number, and effectively, you know, flip the broker screen so that you get access to perfect information, so that you can do what’s in your best interest. And you know, we work with a network of lenders that consult for virtually every loan scenario and we’ve pre negotiated terms with all of them. But most importantly, we allow you to shop in complete anonymity. So we never share your information with any of our lenders, until you opt in and you say that’s a lender and then offers the one that I want to choose and move forward with. Only at that time, will you connect with that lender? And will they have access to your information. And for us, we just believe that in every walk of life, you’re able to do something like this, when you want to go shop for a car, you’re able to figure out what the dealers in your area are selling those cars for, without having to, you know, go and do that silly negotiation with the salesperson. And you should have that same ability afforded to you and what’s like, the markets got to become a lot less opaque. And so I like the fact that you know, it is becoming that way with with services like yours. Okay, so basically, they give this information, it’s a soft inquiry on their credit report. And what does that mean to them? You know, if you get a lot of hard inquiries, it looks like you’re out shopping and you’re asking for credit, but it’s being denied. Right.
Jason Hartman 30:54
And so that lowers your score. Does the soft inquiry do anything?
No, there’s no impact to your credit whatsoever and what’s important. So it is very similar to what would happen if you use the service like Credit Karma. And they use a soft credit. Great. Now what’s a very important distinction for us is that the credit models we use are the exact same ones that are used by all mortgage lenders. And this is important because what that allows us to do is get the score that is used by your mortgage lender to price your loan, because there are a million different credit models. And if you’re not using the one that is used throughout the mortgage industry and the one that Fannie and Freddie require, then that can be very misleading in terms of, you know, the price were able to get so what happens is we get the exact same credit score that every mortgage lender would use, and we see all of the same trade lines. So given your credit score, we can price your loan accordingly. Given all of your trade lines, we can calculate your debt to income properly, and then based off of you the property value of your existing home. If you’re refinancing Or the purchase price will use that as the estimated value to be able to calculate the loan to value ratio, which is effectively all of the criteria that you use to evaluate what rate and what products are best and most suitable for your very specific situation. Okay, anything else you want people to know? No, I mean, I think this is a great opportunity to talk a little bit about the industry and to share a little bit about us. Our business is a purpose driven organization. It was started with a mission to ensure that every American gets a fair deal on their mortgage. And we’ve built innovative technology. We’ve built a network of vetted retail lenders, banks, credit unions and mortgage companies that agree to operate in full transparency. And we provide consumers with access to the information they need to create the best financial outcome for themselves and not for the lender. And we found that our customers found that to be really refreshing and it’s a source of pride for us and yeah, it’s been A real pleasure to be on and get the chance to tell your listeners more about us. Excellent and
the website is own up.com Patrick, thanks for joining us, Jason. Thank you very much then Real pleasure.
Jason Hartman 33:12
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