Jason Hartman hosts guest George Gilder, author of Wealth & Poverty, Knowledge & Power, The Israel Test, The Scandal of Money, Life After Google, as well as his latest book, Life After Google. They discuss society’s technological shift and how blockchain is disrupting society. George looks at the nation’s spirit of entrepreneurship and what he expects it to be like in 5-10 years.
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it on now. here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.
Jason Hartman 0:52
Welcome and thank you so much for joining me. This is episode number 1065 1065. Today on Our guest will be George Gilder he is returning to the show, we might have him as a speaker announcement of one of our upcoming events. So stay tuned for that. George Gilder you may have heard him on our show before. He also is a bigwig in the thought leadership industry for investing and the stock market and technology and he’s written many, many books on all of these subjects. So we will touch on at least the first half of his interview today, maybe the whole thing, depending on how long we go, because to help me do the intro here, we have our returning guest, Doug, who, when you put Doug and I in a room, it is never a brief conversation. Doug, welcome. How are you?
I like to think there’s never a dull moment either. And it’s Other people may disagree.
Jason Hartman 1:51
Yeah, no, I think it’s never a dull moment for sure. But Doug, you are an idea, man and you have some great ideas. You really do and One of the ideas that you you know, we kind of feed off of each other really well, I think. So I’m glad to have you involved in our thought and content creation world here. So it’s good to have you involved in all this thought creation and content creation over the years, you had a new idea for a new interactive exercise for our investors, and you are going to be hosting this in Hawaii. At our profits in paradise event. I’m super excited about it. And this is called the wealth simulator, the wealth simulator. So if you’ve ever taken flying lessons, or if you’ve ever played SimCity, and you’ve used a simulation exercise, that’s what this is about. But this is very real world. So I love it. Tell us about it, Doug.
Sure thing. So I actually got the idea for this from some of the old pen and paper based role playing games that I used to play when I was younger. And so for some of the nerdier folks in your audience now. If you’re having poking out into cool, this may not speak to them for anybody who’s a fan of like Monty Python movies and things like that. This will probably really speak to them. But my whole thought is that the way most performers lay things out, they’ll say, Okay, well, we’re going to say that the property appreciates at 6% a year, we’re going to say that there’s 8% vacancy, and we’re gonna say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that’s not how real life works the way real life works. The way real life works is your appreciation. Average is 6%. Some years it’s three, some years, it’s eight, some years, it’s minus 10. Other years, it’s plus 25.
Jason Hartman 3:36
And it also depends, of course, where you invest and what type of property class you’re investing in, and a whole bunch of factors. But yeah, you know, six is a commonly referred to reference point for appreciation rates. Okay, go ahead.
Exactly. And so what happens is, when you put a portfolio together, you’re not going to have a stable linear increase. There’ll be some markets that have trouble there’ll be some properties that have trouble there will be some markets that do outstanding There’ll be some properties that just you never have any problems with at all. And the thing that I want to help demonstrate with this game is how when you put a portfolio together, you have exposure to both some of the upside, and some of the downside, you deal with the downside, so that you have a chance to experience the upside. And so what happens is when you put that into a whole portfolio, and then run it through a simulation of multiple years of turning tenants, of experiencing market simulations, maybe of saying hey, do we want to do a refinance to pull cash out, things like that, what we can do is we can start to see you know, when you give a portfolio time, it really can help make you very wealthy, because I know that you’ve done your say refi till you die simulations, which are pretty high level and this is really taking it down to a more granular level. This
Jason Hartman 4:51
is a more like, more nuts and bolts kind of hands on very real world thing
Jason Hartman 5:00
you know, take the issue of tenant turnover, right. And this is just all over the board. You know, sometimes you turn a property and it’s really easy, you know, you move one tenant out, you might take a little bit of money out of their security deposit, you move a new one in three days later, and it’s beautiful. But other times, it’s terrible. You know, you have a tenant who’s done a bunch of damage, you’ve got some normal wear and tear, you’ve got the property manager who has a different alignment of interests, that’s not necessarily aligned with you, that may or may not be willing to debit the tenant security deposit as much as they should or you want them to. And so there are all these issues, right, and that turnover could be more expensive. And you’ve got to kind of average this out. But I think when you look at it from a long term with a wealth simulator game, it really helps us focus on the big picture. And it helps us as investors get over those bumps in the road that feed All too significant when we’re there. But looking back, they’re like a little pebble in your shoe. They’re no big deal. Right? Exactly.
And one of the things that I’m also looking to do with the wealth simulator is, of course, right to simulate the different types of properties, different markets. So for example, one of the things I’ll be building in is that if you’re investing in higher end properties, you’re going to have less onerous tenant turnovers, your lower end properties your season, while we don’t really do c minuses, but your B minus and C properties are going to look better on paper, but you’re going to have more frequent problems to deal with. And so I think one of the things that’ll be really interesting is to see based on the makeup of the different teams, some people might have more of a risk appetite, and they’re going to say, hey, if I get a bunch of C properties, they’re probably not all going to be a disaster at once. And they’ll say, I’m going to go for the higher cash flow. Other people’s might say, I’m going to go for some of the A and B properties because I want better stability and more predictability. And I think that’s one of the things that I’m really looking to see play out, you know, not just to see Who can win? but also to be able to see, hey, when you implement different strategies, how do they play out differently? Because the way that we’re going to be building the simulation is frankly, based on a random number generator, because as much as everybody likes to pretend that they can predict the future, they can’t. Yeah, I can’t. You can’t. Nobody can. Is it completely random? Not necessarily, but I can’t predict it. And nobody is any good at it. Yep.
Jason Hartman 7:25
Yep. Yep. Good point. Good point. Okay, good. Doug. I can’t wait to play the wealth simulator game with everybody. At our Hawaii event. Of course, this is profits and paradise. This is coming up the first week of November. We’ve never had an event in Hawaii before. We’ve never had an event like this before. We’ve added to our kind of event in conference catalog over the years, starting many years ago with creating wealth. Certainly the most attended event ever because it’s been going for so many, you know, for like 14 years, and then we added Jason Hartman university or JD You before that we had meet the masters. And now we have a whole new event with new content, new points of view. We also, you know, are many years into a pretty booming real estate market here. And I think that begs the question are we are on the precipice of a change. And so we’re going to talk about how to deal with that possibility. Now that, you know, we’ve all been through it many times, or at least, you know, we have on our team, maybe you haven’t in the audience, but you’ll, you’ll hear about that. So really excited about this event. Go to Jason hartman.com to get your tickets if you haven’t done so already. And, Doug, any final thoughts before we get to George Gilder
I think just the main thing for customers to think about is that it’s a really great idea to come to these events, because every time there’s a little bit of a different spin, so it’s easy to say, Okay, yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all that before I know it right. But even if you hear something or most of it you’ve heard before, the way that your mind is oriented. will make you think of things that you that hadn’t occurred to you before. That’s actually one of the reasons why I have an audible subscription, I download audiobooks, and I’ll listen to a lot of books 3456 times, because every time I listen to them, I always learn something new, or I learn how to implement something in a way that didn’t occur to me the first time I listened to it, I’ll catch something else. So even if you’ve been to creating wealth before, even if you’ve been in church, you masters, it’s a really great idea for you to come to profits in Paradise, because there’s going to be some new content, and also content that’s presented a different way that will help you to develop different ideas, because one of the things that I think is really important for people to understand is the value of an idea, an idea that you don’t put into action. First of all, it’s worth nothing. But the thing is, if you do put ideas into action, and you get an idea that you didn’t have before that’s really valuable. It can be a multiple of hundreds of times what you paid to go to the conference, hundreds Yeah, ideas can be just true. tremendously valuable. So one of the things that really impactful people do is go out and expose themselves to opportunities to acquire new ideas.
Jason Hartman 10:09
Yeah, very good, very good point. And it is at least partially tax deductible vacation. You know, so that’s good. And then the, you know, obviously, the networking is so, so powerful. You see people that are really doing it, you meet people that are really doing it will share many meals together at this event. So that’s always super valuable. adding on to your thought guy remember, many years ago when I was listening to a cassette tape, yes, a cassette tape of Earl Nightingale, the late great success teacher, he talked about that idea. He said, The reason you really need to use the repetitive technique is that every time when we’re listening to something, say we’re at a conference and you know, while I’m up there talking about this, that or the other thing or you’re up there talking about this, that or the other thing When you hear a new idea that you haven’t heard before, and Earl Nightingale did this as the metaphor, he said, it’s like picking up the tonearm on a record player. We’re using some old examples here or seasoned
some old metaphor. Exactly,
Jason Hartman 11:15
exactly. But of his day, that was certainly true. So the record keeps spinning, the arm is up, because now your mind is thinking about that new idea, oh, how could I implement this? What about that? Is that really true? You know, does it apply to me does apply to not not apply to me, whatever your mind is thinking about all of that. And you’re not listening to what immediately follows that idea? because now you’ve gone into your own head, right? And then when you listen again, you hear the stuff that immediately followed because the new idea didn’t distract you from it. And so you pick up the tonearm. The record keeps spinning and going by underneath. And that’s the importance of repetitive learning. We’ve always said that people should come to at least two of our events. Every year, because they will learn so many new things, even if it’s the same event, right? Even if it’s creating wealth or Jq over and over, we don’t do masters or prophets in paradise over and over like that. But they will learn new things. There’s no question about it, they will definitely learn new things every single time. So very important to come. Yeah.
And one of the things that I found is that I learned probably more from the other people who are at events than the actual content of the events. So even if the content is identical, which is never the case, that people will be different. And the people are who you’re really going to learn from.
Jason Hartman 12:35
Absolutely. Good point. Yeah, the networking is a huge part of it. So Doug, I’m glad you mentioned all that. And thank you for the big idea on the wealth simulator game. I can’t wait. We’re going to do it in Hawaii. The portfolio builder game has always been a big hit the one that we do at Jq, but this is an entirely new, very real world concept. So looking forward to it and I will see you there. Folks, let’s get to at least the first half today of George Gilder. It’s my pleasure to welcome a returning guest back to the show he’s been on several times before, and I’ve been following his work for a good 20 years or so. I originally had the pleasure of meeting George Gilder on a cruise a Forbes investor cruise through Scandinavia and Russia many years ago. And I saw him speak there and got to hang out with him and it’s a pleasure to have him back on the show. He’s co founder and senior fellow at the discovery Institute. He’s original pillar of supply side economics, former speechwriter for President Ronald Reagan, author of the classic book on economics, wealth and poverty. The New York Times best selling author of the scandal of money why Wall Street recovers but the economy never does. And the author of the new book life after Google, the fall of big data and the rise of the blockchain economy, as well as many other books. George, welcome back. How are you? Great to be here? Yeah, it’s good to have you. It’s good to have you. So, Google and now you may disagree with me on this and feel free to but I believe that Google and Facebook are two of the scariest companies on Earth, they influence way too much. They have way too much control. Any company that controls 65 70% of the global Internet traffic, either number one needs to be busted up under antitrust or number two needs to be regulated like a utility, or number three needs to make their algorithms open source so we can see what they’re up to. I don’t know.
George Gilder 14:36
What is Google Marxism George. Google Marxism repeats the original error of Karl Marx. Karl Marx’s basic mistake was to imagine that the machines of the Industrial Revolution were kind of the final human accomplishment that From then on, after the factories turbines and steam engines and beginning to the electricity railroads of the Industrial Revolution, the only challenge would be to redistribute wealth that the problem of creating wealth had been solved. And today, Google makes the same claim even more grandiose Lee, they say that their technologies, their artificial intelligence, their machine learning, their robotics, their biotech, their search engines and solution, engine maps and all the miraculous inventions that Google has provided the world are the final human accomplishment, because we’re headed for a singularity where Google’s machines are going to be smarter than any humans and humans already be able to comprehend them. And all we can do is we’re tired of various pitches. Receive a guaranteed annual income while the new Masters of the Universe fly off to nearby planets with Elan Musk, in a winner take all universe. And I just think this is a delusional philosophy. It’s Google Marxism. And it is a typical error that technologists always make of exaggerating the significance of their own creations. Artificial Intelligence is a wonderful technology it will, it creates jobs that make human beings more productive and thus more employable. It’s a good thing, but it doesn’t usurp human minds. Artificial Intelligence is impossible without real human intelligence.
Jason Hartman 16:47
Yeah, yeah. Very, very interesting. What do you think about you believe that Google is sort of at the peak of its power right now? Sounds like I mean, are they going to be actually toppled? It’s hard to imagine At any company as powerful as Google and, and you know, say Facebook. I don’t know if you include that in your thinking here, but I’d be curious about that. Yeah,
George Gilder 17:08
you know, 10 years ago, and 2008, the four leading companies in the world and market cap were Walmart, Exxon, China, petroleum and China industrial and commercial bank. 10 years later, the four biggest companies in the world are Apple, Amazon, Google and Microsoft. This is a tremendous triumph for American information technology. It’s completely unpredicted. I’m just saying that in 10 years, these companies are going to be displaced by new companies that supply a new architecture for the internet, based on the cryptographic innovations that are occurring around the world in the wake of Bitcoin. Then aetherium and Neo and EOS and always new foundations for Internet security and internet transactions without the ridiculous circus of usernames and passwords for every website on planet all assuming that they’re the apple of VRI. They’re the only website you have. So of course, you know your username and password. And that’s stupid security questions they ask and all the other personal data they require for you to transact on their page.
Jason Hartman 18:38
Well, look, you know, most people think of Google as a search engine, obviously, alphabet, maybe we should be talking about alphabet, the parent company. It’s many things. They’re into all sorts of stuff, robotics, Ai, search, you know, zillion other things, self driving cars, etc. But I mean, most people experience Google as a search engine. That’s what they really think of and maybe a lot of projects.
George Gilder 19:00
9090 95% of their revenues still come from their search engine, right advertising sold on the basis of information collected through their search engine that’s 95% of their revenues. Since most of their products are free, they don’t submit to this usual disciplines of capitalist economy. So their learning process may be slower than an ordinary company experiences that has prices to convey to them the real conditions in their marketplace. Google has virtually no ordinary customers. Right? Right. It avoids security liabilities to their customers by giving away their search for free.
Jason Hartman 19:47
Right. What you said before it, you know, the fact that Google doesn’t really have that and many other companies are in the same position. They don’t have that typical feedback mechanism that most businesses have to Have because they’re not so over funded and over wealthy right? You know, Google is kind of immune to the typical business environment. Many other companies are in the same.
George Gilder 20:11
It’s not that they’re over funded. It’s that they had an absolutely brilliant coup and advertising. They understood the lesson of life after television, which was my book written in around 1990. with subsequent editions, which predicted that computers the future would be as portable as your watches personalise your wallet, it would recognize speech, it would navigate streets, it would collect your news and your mail just might not do windows. Right. So doors, and Steve Jobs, read the book and pass it out to his colleagues. So I think I had some minor role and the rise of these smartphones that I call tele pewters back in The
Jason Hartman 21:00
head telecommuters, I love it. Yeah, very reminiscent of the tricorder on Star Trek. What is the future of search then? For example?
George Gilder 21:10
Well, Google is already abandoning search. Google is moving from search to solutions. They’re focusing on employing artificial intelligence sort of transhuman, artificial intelligence, and the collection of virtually all the data in the universe to be able to answer all questions themselves. So their ultimate goal is to use big data and concentrated data centers and in the clouds to in a godlike fashion. Deliver answers to all your questions better than the answers you could summon yourself.
Jason Hartman 21:53
Yeah, something else
George Gilder 21:54
and better than the answers than any other webpage. Now the crawl Websites offer your answers but in the future, their artificial intelligence will allow them to generate answers themselves.
Jason Hartman 22:09
Tell us how that looks. I mean, how will the internet you’re a futurist, a technologist, you’re all kinds of things really, financial guy. How will the world look in 10 years, five years, you know, what will our experience be like versus the way it is today with blockchain influencing technology so much,
George Gilder 22:26
the blockchain reverses this whole Google Empire. The Google model is a kind of poor us pyramid where in search of security, they concentrate all the data in a bunch of giant data centers deployed near rivers and glaciers and in the mountains around the world. And the idea that centralization will offer security and this is it kind of poor but centralization they discover is not safe. tells hackers where the information is and what information is important. So, the blockchain reverses this model. Rather than concentrating all the information in one place, they distributed across all the nodes at the network. And they make each individual participant, the master of his own data, his own identity, his own content. And so rather than having to learn thousands of usernames and passwords in order to transact across the internet, you will have one username and, and one private key that applies to yourself. As your DNA is unique. Your identity is unique, and that one identity can be used at any of the resources or sites across the net. And so it moves the internet from poor pyramid where all the money and power rises to the top to Google and Amazon and whatever to bottom up Internet where individual control their own content and identity and security.
Jason Hartman 24:18
Okay, so another part of that is something that we’ve probably all heard talked about a little bit and it’s this idea. All of our information should be owned by each individual, we should own our own information rather than Facebook owning some of it Google owning some of it, LinkedIn, owning some of it. And then when we move around through cyberspace, our information would just go with us and we would allow sharing and and sharing and we could revoke permission at any time. What do you think of that idea? Will it work and what is it really
George Gilder 24:55
journal words it says it makes sense that the current system is broken. Going down. There’s no security on the internet. The big companies like Google’s only answer is to dispatch SWAT teams against hackers across the net or F for more usernames and passwords or harass you with more security messages that are just irritating and distracting, and cannot readily be differentiated from actual hacks. So the current security model is broken. And the only response of Facebook and Google at all is, as for yet more passwords, and maybe more pins and all the monthly Iris scans and face recognition, schemes and ultimately your DNA. So they just don’t have an answer. The security is broken down and what cryptic Azam offers, that is this new floor? Lots of creativity in the wake of Bitcoin and aetherium is a new architecture for the internet where the individual is in control, whereas the data is distributed the way human minds are distributed. The only thing that gives any meaning to any of these technologies at the individual human mind, that’s what it’s all about. And the idea that somehow the technology is going to blast out of control of human beings. It’s just delusional.
Jason Hartman 26:32
George, How far away are we from this kind of change? That sounds pretty major. It sounds like a tectonic shift.
George Gilder 26:39
Well, it’s a tectonic shift because it also be a new monetary system for the world economy at the very moment when the existing global monetary system is cruising toward a crash of some kind with 250 trillion dollars of global debt, four or five times solid gold. GDP I mean, it’s just an unsustainable system created to endow the central banks with the ability to impose the burdens today on tomorrow. And, and by half of existing incumbent politicians, the biggest industry in the entire world economy, bigger than anything else is currency trading. It’s $5.1 trillion a day. It’s 73 times all world trade and goods and services. It’s 25 times all world GDP. And it doesn’t even produce reliable or authentic monetary values. All it does is allow central banks to stick the bills that Today on our children. It’s happening now. I mean, it’s something that’s an honor Going process. You know, the biggest problem of the US economy from my point of view is the collapse of initial public offerings. they’ve dropped 90%. In the last 20 years, the stock market is only half as large and number of public companies as it was before. Most of these public companies are buying up their rivals rather than accommodating IPOs or buying up their own stock at a rate of some $40 billion a month. It’s really a carnival of bunkum out there. It’s called a stock market boom. But it’s in fact, a real crippling of the public markets and reduction to a few hundred favored companies that hedge funds buy in and out up at a rate of millions of times a second. That would be a sign of more centralization and more winner take all type of situation right It’s the rise of the administrative state that really accounts for this collapse of entrepreneurship, but they believe there’s no entrepreneurial collapse in Communist China, surprisingly enough, I just come back from Communist China where they just published life after Google, and 12 different publishers bid on it. The entrepreneurial they have three times as many IPOs as we do in China now. They got comparable levels of venture capital and whole efflorescence of innovation. It’s really impressive. And we in the United States are trying to catch up but essentially, but we still have virtually no IPOs and the FCC is contemplating expanding to Icos, the same kind of paralysis. That reduced IPOs by 90%. Well,
Jason Hartman 29:57
I see that policy Yeah. Yeah, there’s some bad stuff going on in Ico world, I think but I don’t know you might might disagree with me. But I mean, his crowdfunding filled the void on some of
George Gilder 30:09
that stuff. There’s bad stuff going on around the world that stuff is a reflection of human behavior everywhere. But the $20 billion of Icos over the last 12 months on the etherion platform, contrived in the last five years by a baton like booter in a teenage genius, really, Lord out of college, but Peter TEALS fellowship, that $20 billion to thousands and thousands of new cryptographic startups has saved the entrepreneurial economy in the United States and across the world. It’s been a great achievement. And yes, a lot of them have gone bust. Some of them are spectacular scams rather readily expected. But it’s the future of the Internet. And it’s really unstoppable. I believe now
Jason Hartman 31:07
what you were just talking about reminded me of something I want to ask you more about one of your thoughts here about insider trading. You have an unusual angle and unusual belief on that. You talked about it on one of my shows before when I interviewed you. Tell us your thoughts on insider trading, if you would,
George Gilder 31:23
the only trading that’s significant. that’s valuable investment is insider investment. The government’s position, which is paralyzing and stultifying public markets, is that it’s illegal to invest in anything you know about. The government actually wants you to invest in things, you know, state lotteries, right? And however all the returns still go to the insider traders. I mean, there’s a bifurcated returns and US investments saying, on one hand our venture capitalists who never invest in anything unless they have intimate knowledge of every nook and cranny of the company. That’s venture capitalists on one side who capture most of their returns for entrepreneurship. And then on the other end, are big conglomerates from Warren Buffett to General Electric to whatever it is to Google and Facebook, what you’re buying up companies by the hundreds. None of these companies ever make an investment without intimate knowledge of all the inside details. And it’s only the public in the middle that it does. Right now, public statements by companies filtered through PR firms and law firms, where all the information is essentially Turned out.
Jason Hartman 33:00
That’s really interesting. I mean, that’s an interesting view. I think you have, you have something there. Now, interestingly, I believe it’s I was reading an article once years ago about how insider trading is actually legal in either maybe New Zealand or Australia.
George Gilder 33:16
Do you know about this? I don’t actually. I mean, I think we have the most oppressive insider trading environment because all investors are terrified, but Preet Baja, and prosecutors like him, he’s the leader who run their computers through all trading data. And if there are any anomalous returns, they’re marked as suspicious and investigated. Essentially, this is just intimidated. The whole investment community and they’re all driven to computer trading at least prayed hasn’t indicted a computer As yet, this is the way trading happens. And you get these egregious 40% per year returns for hedge funds that are trading through flash boys and quantum trading and always empty models that succeed only by trading faster than the market can move. So they essentially get to the front run without actually front running the computer does thousands of trades a second long before
Jason Hartman 34:34
compete before someone.
George Gilder 34:37
Right, right. Yeah,
Jason Hartman 34:38
it’s ridiculous. It’s, it’s impossible to compete. Wrap it up with any of your thoughts about the future, your new book, whatever you like and give out your website to
George Gilder 34:47
well, just life after Google offers a very hopeful perspective on this amazing upsurge of creativity around the world. And then already addressed our problem of IPO doldrums. It’s addressing the problem of world money. And with efforts to simulate goal and new digital forms that can allow the rise of a new global money that serves as a measuring stick rather than as a magic wand for central bankers. It addresses the security crisis on the internet where the only answer is more usernames and passwords and security questions.
Jason Hartman 35:34
Yes, that stuff bugs you as much as it does me see George I think usernames, passwords and leaf blowers are some of the most annoying things in the world.
George Gilder 35:47
Jason Hartman 35:49
you like the leaf blower thing? See, that’s a technology that needs to go away. It was one of the worst inventions ever.
George Gilder 35:58
roadways, blown Those computers doing currency trading and all banks around the world. Yeah, $5.1 trillion of leaf blowing, that doesn’t even provide us a measuring stick of a stable currency at the end of the day, or even at the end of the second. That’s what the cryptic Azam offers. I wrote about the microcosm, which was the rise of the computer chip back in the early 1980s. And he wrote
Jason Hartman 36:29
about the telecom ism and the blogosphere, the rise of
George Gilder 36:33
the Internet and fiber optics and this is the new economy emerging today. The cryptic Azam. Yeah, good stuff life after Google. Well, there will be life after Google. Google says there won’t be life after Google as well. I’ll retire to bitches. Yeah, I say that humans still have a role in the future. Well, that’s that’s a div and the images are created. Okay, that’s encouraging.
Jason Hartman 37:01
George Gilder thanks again for joining us. Appreciate it.
George Gilder 37:04
Well, thank you. I really appreciate the interview.
Jason Hartman 37:09
Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t
George Gilder 37:12
miss any episodes.
Jason Hartman 37:14
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